The Wakers are prone to looking to us for guidance and for leadership, as we are closer to them but with far more power of our own. Several of them have been waiting for us for millennia. Is your argument that we should leave them to fend for themselves, despite what they themselves might want? Several members of our community have accumulated followings, even without necessarily wanting them.
Not to mention, the Pthumerians do not consider us outsiders. We are subjects and playthings to do with as they please. We are told to prepare our new lives here. Are we not entitled to anger over the way we are treated as little more than dolls? Or should we allow the weaker and more vulnerable masses of people to take the actions necessary to avenge the wrongs done against them?
I am not interested in any form of justice that focuses on vengeance for its own sake. Ending wrongs is a worthy goal, but I believe we much consider our intentions, our means, and our ends, all together.
If the Wakers truly want our help, then we should be able to open conversations with them, and form something like a consensus on what actions we should take. No, I don't know exactly what the mechanism for that should be.
But I am very sure I do not YET have enough knowledge to take action as drastic as a revolution, wisely.
An old friend and enemy of mine once told me that if you have the power to decide the outcome of a situation, it is your responsibility to do the right thing with it. I agree, largely, that staging a revolution at this time would hardly be the "right" thing.
But many of the Pthumerians hold this land in a stranglehold. They were conquerors as well. This world isn't theirs, it was humanity's world first before the Pthumerian Queen's ambitions caused a snowball of events that lead to Julia Sodder's dreaming and the subsequent unmaking of the Earth.
Is letting them continue to make people suffer unchecked the right thing, then? Is allowing their torment of the people of this land fester further until this world is unmade by the very properties that they introduced in the populace the right thing?
Every second that we are not eradicating the enemy, the world bleeds. Is allowing it to to rot the right thing to do?
There is no easy answer. But the world can't continue as it is, and the local populace do not have the power to change it. We do. Even a hard answer is better than allowing this planet to continue to fester into the hell that it already has become. Even if the humanity of this world is not prepared to strike back against their jailors, I think it is laughably rich for a so-called revolutionary such as your self to look down on people looking to emancipate themselves.
[He reads her response carefully, a couple of times. She sure did take a sharp left turn at the end there, didn't she?]
Chara, I'm not sure what you want from me here. I am more than willing to hear both Wakers and other Sleepers out. But from for myself, I am wary of both black and white thinking, and rushing into making decisions out of anger and fear, without considering the risks and cost. I've made those mistakes before.
[The fucked up thing is that they're just rude. They don't have as much of a horse in this race as they're pretending they do. They believe the Pthumerians are enemies that need to be killed, but they don't personally care a bit about this world or any of the native humans of this ruined planet.]
I have no desired outcome from you, I'm simply stating my own thoughts on the concept and your reaction to it.
Anger and fear are what spawns revolutions, every single one of them. I am of the opinion that the people, Sleepers and Wakers alike, are entitled to their hatred of those that would crush them like bugs.
No. The Emperor and his regime are too terrible to be allowed to continue. It rules through fear, and deliberately attempts to destroy entire planets, cultures, and species. Then usually tries to brainwash and/or enslave any survivors.
I regret some of the methods I used. Does anyone 'deserve' mind control into committing friendly fire and then suicide?
Yes. I hardly see how that's any different than any other method of murdering them. Violating, yes, but it is also violating to be impaled or dismembered or suffocated or beaten to death. Even in self defense. [They... would know.]
Wouldn't overthrowing the Emperor cause a power vacuum? Who takes over in his absence? How many millions of lives would suffer in the power struggle that followed, or in the rebellion that preceded it that might have been spared from the Emperor's whims if others didn't make the decision for them? I don't know the situation. [Well, not strictly true. Canonically, they have seen Star Wars at least but they're not cruel enough to spring that on poor Ezra mid conversation.] But I think almost any major choice with consequences these large has arguments for either action and inaction, and the same is true for the choices Sleepers are faced with regarding the Wakers and the Pthumerians.
In addition, I would like to point out that the Pthumerian Queen has done the exact same things that you described to the human race in this world.
I prefer to either end a conflict without death, or to kill as quickly as possible. Not to violate or torment.
Back home, I am only one person who is part of a much larger group, some of whom are aware of the power vacuum problems. There are plans to restore a republic, which is the form of government that existed up until the day I was born. I'm not in charge of those parts of the Rebellion.
I guess I need to add looking up info on the Pthumerian Queen to my to do list.
I am not a sadist either, but I will say, all deaths are violating and all deaths are painful. In the end, you have to be exceptionally cruel to have it make much of a difference. I would say that using mind control on someone and then letting them live afterward is a harsher cruelty than finishing them quickly.
Speak to Vira-Lorr. She has records of all she knows about the dream, including her own memories of the Pthumerian Queen's plan. The Queen was the one that subjected Julia Sodder to the life of a demon by right of birth.
Not true. Ramona remains here. How much she remembers is debatable but she has been subjected to the hell that the other sleepers inflicted on her for as long as this wheezing corpse of a world has continued as it is.
True enough, and there are the other survivors as well who remember Sodder's dream. But so far, they have seen fit to engage with this world in the same way legends do--living their own lives without correcting assumptions about what came before.
Do you have a solution for cruelty, predation, and death?
Those are all aspects of the natural cycle of life and death. I have no interest in solving them.
Blood pollution, however, is killing the planet gradually. If the world becomes completely uninhabitable to humanity without turning into beasts, well... that's different from something natural to the world. Not to mention, it is only as bad as it is because it has continued this long.
The Pthumerians introduced that into the world. They are not all the same, some are more benevolent, some are more malevolent. But it is laughable that they would presume to rule over us anyway.
Is it? A person catches a plague and dies of it. While we wish it weren't so, and are not wrong in our struggle to save her, is it an unnatural process that takes her life?
Rule is an interesting word for what they do. It implies a great deal of control that many of them confess not to have. Their dominion seems more that of a child's over a swarm of ants than a tyrant over her subjects.
A plague is still natural. If a world is intentionally infected with a plague created off the back of one girl's life of misery, it's unnatural. Of course, murder and a desire to dominate is also natural, but I'm not above countering like with like.
Of course they don't have complete control. Surely you understand that no tyrant has complete control over their empire? They do not hold dominion over the thoughts and feelings of their subjects. But still, they call themselves our patrons, they assign themselves the role of pantheon... And it is Marina who draws us from the sea and spits us out, telling us escape is impossible.
They are not equal. But they still claim this world as gods. Mother Superior even attempts to claim ranking amongst them, even though they reject her and sneer at her.
But to answer your question.
Anything can be defeated. There is no such thing as true immortality, existence without end. It all comes to an end eventually.
But also, them specifically, yes I do think it's possible for the Sleepers to overthrow them. I would even go as far as to say that it is an inevitability.
Intentionally infected. Do you believe Julia's misery was the Pthumerian Queen's intent and not a tragic consequence?
The worst tyrants I know had complete control over their subjects. Our thoughts, our feelings. [The King of Eyes. The Queen of Locusts.] You met them.
But even a typical tyrant intrudes herself far more in her people's lives than the Pthumerians do. She can't do otherwise. She is nothing without a Court. The Patrons to the contrary don't require our devotion. Some even eschew it.
She created Cynthia to act as a womb to birth Julia Sodder. It was their entire reason for coming across the sea, an experiment in eugenics to perfect the power of the Pthumerian psychic power by mixing it with the raw potential of humanity. And it was the entire purpose for Cynthia's existence. This is not an assumption, this is a memory that I have seen with my own eyes.
She did not do this just the once. It is why the rest of the world is the way that it is, though Sodder was the most powerful from everything we know. Whether the lifetime of abuse Sodder suffered was necessarily planned or not is irrelevant. She was an overheating nuclear reactor of psychic energy given human form. She never had the option of happiness.
You are correct on that count, I'll admit that much. But admittedly, the patrons still make us behave certain ways, don't they? They make us accept their "new start" dogma, without questioning it. It's an idea planted in our heads the moment we wash up on the beach. Every month, they shape us in new and different ways. On the first month that I arrived here, they prompted me to hunt vilebloods and warmbloods, on the next, they prompted me to mingle and make friends. And on the month after that, they forced my secrets out of my throat before an audience of their cultists. They are subtle, like a subconscious thought or memory planted in our heads. But the effect that their mere presence has on us is still noticeable. I don't know if they do it intentionally. I don't know if it matters.
It hasn't happened because the game has only just begun. The mysteries of this world haven't begun to unravel yet. But they will. Soon enough.
[In their defense, they are very used to existing as a force to push the narrative forward. The idea that their coming doesn't signal the end of the world as these people know it is, frankly, alien to them.]
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
for some reason it froze...
Not to mention, the Pthumerians do not consider us outsiders. We are subjects and playthings to do with as they please. We are told to prepare our new lives here. Are we not entitled to anger over the way we are treated as little more than dolls? Or should we allow the weaker and more vulnerable masses of people to take the actions necessary to avenge the wrongs done against them?
no subject
If the Wakers truly want our help, then we should be able to open conversations with them, and form something like a consensus on what actions we should take. No, I don't know exactly what the mechanism for that should be.
But I am very sure I do not YET have enough knowledge to take action as drastic as a revolution, wisely.
no subject
But many of the Pthumerians hold this land in a stranglehold. They were conquerors as well. This world isn't theirs, it was humanity's world first before the Pthumerian Queen's ambitions caused a snowball of events that lead to Julia Sodder's dreaming and the subsequent unmaking of the Earth.
Is letting them continue to make people suffer unchecked the right thing, then? Is allowing their torment of the people of this land fester further until this world is unmade by the very properties that they introduced in the populace the right thing?
Every second that we are not eradicating the enemy, the world bleeds. Is allowing it to to rot the right thing to do?
There is no easy answer. But the world can't continue as it is, and the local populace do not have the power to change it. We do. Even a hard answer is better than allowing this planet to continue to fester into the hell that it already has become. Even if the humanity of this world is not prepared to strike back against their jailors, I think it is laughably rich for a so-called revolutionary such as your self to look down on people looking to emancipate themselves.
no subject
Chara, I'm not sure what you want from me here. I am more than willing to hear both Wakers and other Sleepers out. But from for myself, I am wary of both black and white thinking, and rushing into making decisions out of anger and fear, without considering the risks and cost. I've made those mistakes before.
no subject
I have no desired outcome from you, I'm simply stating my own thoughts on the concept and your reaction to it.
Anger and fear are what spawns revolutions, every single one of them. I am of the opinion that the people, Sleepers and Wakers alike, are entitled to their hatred of those that would crush them like bugs.
Do you regret the revolution you took part in?
no subject
I regret some of the methods I used. Does anyone 'deserve' mind control into committing friendly fire and then suicide?
no subject
Wouldn't overthrowing the Emperor cause a power vacuum? Who takes over in his absence? How many millions of lives would suffer in the power struggle that followed, or in the rebellion that preceded it that might have been spared from the Emperor's whims if others didn't make the decision for them? I don't know the situation. [Well, not strictly true. Canonically, they have seen Star Wars at least but they're not cruel enough to spring that on poor Ezra mid conversation.] But I think almost any major choice with consequences these large has arguments for either action and inaction, and the same is true for the choices Sleepers are faced with regarding the Wakers and the Pthumerians.
In addition, I would like to point out that the Pthumerian Queen has done the exact same things that you described to the human race in this world.
no subject
Back home, I am only one person who is part of a much larger group, some of whom are aware of the power vacuum problems. There are plans to restore a republic, which is the form of government that existed up until the day I was born. I'm not in charge of those parts of the Rebellion.
I guess I need to add looking up info on the Pthumerian Queen to my to do list.
no subject
Speak to Vira-Lorr. She has records of all she knows about the dream, including her own memories of the Pthumerian Queen's plan. The Queen was the one that subjected Julia Sodder to the life of a demon by right of birth.
no subject
I do know Vira-Lorr. I'll speak to her when I have the time and energy to give the matter some real attention.
no subject
Tell her I said greetings.
no subject
It has for longer than any Sleeper here remembers--even the oldest.
[Much like Chara, Illarion's inclined to poke.]
no subject
Do you have a solution for the blood pollution?
no subject
Do you have a solution for cruelty, predation, and death?
no subject
Blood pollution, however, is killing the planet gradually. If the world becomes completely uninhabitable to humanity without turning into beasts, well... that's different from something natural to the world. Not to mention, it is only as bad as it is because it has continued this long.
The Pthumerians introduced that into the world. They are not all the same, some are more benevolent, some are more malevolent. But it is laughable that they would presume to rule over us anyway.
no subject
Rule is an interesting word for what they do. It implies a great deal of control that many of them confess not to have. Their dominion seems more that of a child's over a swarm of ants than a tyrant over her subjects.
Do you think they can be defeated?
no subject
Of course they don't have complete control. Surely you understand that no tyrant has complete control over their empire? They do not hold dominion over the thoughts and feelings of their subjects. But still, they call themselves our patrons, they assign themselves the role of pantheon... And it is Marina who draws us from the sea and spits us out, telling us escape is impossible.
They are not equal. But they still claim this world as gods. Mother Superior even attempts to claim ranking amongst them, even though they reject her and sneer at her.
But to answer your question.
Anything can be defeated. There is no such thing as true immortality, existence without end. It all comes to an end eventually.
But also, them specifically, yes I do think it's possible for the Sleepers to overthrow them. I would even go as far as to say that it is an inevitability.
no subject
The worst tyrants I know had complete control over their subjects. Our thoughts, our feelings. [The King of Eyes. The Queen of Locusts.] You met them.
But even a typical tyrant intrudes herself far more in her people's lives than the Pthumerians do. She can't do otherwise. She is nothing without a Court. The Patrons to the contrary don't require our devotion. Some even eschew it.
Why hasn't that inevitability happened?
no subject
She created Cynthia to act as a womb to birth Julia Sodder. It was their entire reason for coming across the sea, an experiment in eugenics to perfect the power of the Pthumerian psychic power by mixing it with the raw potential of humanity. And it was the entire purpose for Cynthia's existence. This is not an assumption, this is a memory that I have seen with my own eyes.
She did not do this just the once. It is why the rest of the world is the way that it is, though Sodder was the most powerful from everything we know. Whether the lifetime of abuse Sodder suffered was necessarily planned or not is irrelevant. She was an overheating nuclear reactor of psychic energy given human form. She never had the option of happiness.
You are correct on that count, I'll admit that much. But admittedly, the patrons still make us behave certain ways, don't they? They make us accept their "new start" dogma, without questioning it. It's an idea planted in our heads the moment we wash up on the beach. Every month, they shape us in new and different ways. On the first month that I arrived here, they prompted me to hunt vilebloods and warmbloods, on the next, they prompted me to mingle and make friends. And on the month after that, they forced my secrets out of my throat before an audience of their cultists. They are subtle, like a subconscious thought or memory planted in our heads. But the effect that their mere presence has on us is still noticeable. I don't know if they do it intentionally. I don't know if it matters.
It hasn't happened because the game has only just begun. The mysteries of this world haven't begun to unravel yet. But they will. Soon enough.
[In their defense, they are very used to existing as a force to push the narrative forward. The idea that their coming doesn't signal the end of the world as these people know it is, frankly, alien to them.]