I'd appreciate that too, Paul. It's bad enough that my friends and I are wanted for already wanted for treason. We didn't have warning for that surprise.
Nice to meet you too, Oscar! Can I ask how being wanted for treason was a surprise? I say, suddenly recalling that under that empire I mentioned, making any Imperial unhappy could suddenly become 'treason'.
It was just a really crazy situation, Ezra. We had been working with the commanding general of that kingdom for months, but the second actual danger showed up he freaked out. I still thought we could talk him down until he shot me and tried arresting everyone else.
I guess Atlas must not be too different from that empire. It figures, this is the same kingdom the tried outlawing all kinds of art because allowing self expression was too dangerous.
The Empire hadn't gotten around to outlawing ALL art yet. Just many kinds and any religion or sub-culture that acknowledges the Force. But yes, I would not be surprised if they had an unfortunate number of traits in common.
Watch out if they start putting cities in the sky. They should be held by a higher standard, but the people in charge just think that they're the exception.
I think floating cities have been a thing back home for a while. Especially on planets not otherwise habitable.
But I take your point. Harder to hold people in charge accountable if they are literally hard to reach physically. And easier for the people physically above it all to believe that they are, in other ways. Yes?
In my time, the rebellion was definitely gaining momentum. My last act back home was ending the imperial blockade on my homeworld. My hope was to end the imperial presence on Lothal entirely and show other planets the Empire could be defeated.
There are people here originating from my galaxy, scattered from up and down the timelines. Looks like the Emperor and his right hand man will be dead in about 5 years after when I'm from. I'm less clear on how much their underlings might continue to fight, and how successful reestablishing more representative government is.
Oh, nice. Glad it's actually possible to get good news from your own future after all around here. Gratz on clearing up that blockade. Here's hoping that we don't have to do anything like that around here, yeah? But if we do, hell, between you and me we should be in good hands.
Last thing I did back home was take down a time-traveling immortal fascist's pet and save the city I lived in. Never followed back up on the fascist himself, but sure as hell not for lack of trying. Still, city was still free when I came here, so I'll take that as a long-lasting win.
Time traveling immortal fascist. Yikes. I can see how that would be tough cookie to crack. [He did his part to nix the time traveling for the Emperor, and he's heard rumor of the attempts at immortality. Hopefully, Palpatine will never level up quite that much.]
A free city that stays free is nothing to scoff at, seriously. Kudos.
Thanks. Didn't pull it off myself, but somehow I'm still the only one here to tell the story.
Dude was a fucking nightmare. Also had a way to tap into the fabric of reality and change the bodies and memories of people living within the city, but I guess he never thought that that could ever go wrong for him.
I'm torn between saying I hope he never ends up here, and wondering if maybe he'd learn something productive like, why fascism is bad, and he can't expect to do whatever he wants forever, if he did.
I am not yet convinced that we, as non-natives to this slice of reality, should be overthrowing much of anything, even if it might need doing.
Korra made a long speech on the network a bit back about overthrowing the Pthumerians, though. She's convinced they somehow instigated the current blood pollution/corruption/magic...thing and that it's a cycle of suffering that needs to be broken.
I think she's making a few leaps of logic, without thinking through possible means OR ends. And even if she's mostly right - again, not ours to unilaterally decide, I don't think.
[There's a pause here where Illarion goes to reference that. Ordinarily--prior to his self-banishment--it's something he'd have already known about.
Certainly there had been rumors of Sleeper sacrilege running around the Pale Sanctuary in more force, recently, but he had not paid those as much mind as he's accustomed to. (Hadn't paid them much of any mind, in favor of focusing on simple duty.)
Finally, having found the speech, listened to it, and skimmed the replies, he responds:]
She is a fool trying to beat the world into the only frame she knows. They exist in every generation.
That isn't to dismiss the danger she may represent, but I suspect she will trip over her own assumptions before she can cause too much harm.
I've spoken to another Sleeper with a similar attitude--misidentifying the Pthumerians as Generation Himself, and believing they might be overthrown. A Monarch's attitude, whatever excuse they use for wanting to do it.
What argument would it take to sway you for or against such a plan? Do you know?
[What are your vulnerabilities in this realm, Ezra?]
I'm not sure that I do know, exactly. This world has existed like it is, for a long time, and we're new to it.
At a minimum, a much more air tight body of evidence that shifting the balance of things so drastically would be better not just for us, as Sleepers, or even all of Trench, but for this world as a whole. Without making things worse elsewhere. And I'd need a lot more people than me to be equally convinced.
Which altogether seems like a pretty unlikely bar to clear.
My bar is much lower for incremental, local changes, of course. Especially if they are opt-in. I'm currently supporting expanded agriculture and trying to use non-lethal ways to deal with beasts.
Generation. Rod. He Whose Mind first conceived of all that exists. The Source of all creation. The Pthumerians see Him as many--as the Old Ones who created everything.
[Not his theology, but he respects it.]
How do you weigh arguments that it would be better for all the lives to come, even if most Sleepers and humans perished in the conflagration?
I do remember you wanted a peaceful approach to the Leviathan. How fare your efforts with the Beasts?
We are so deep in hypotheticals without specifics, it's hard for me to say. I don't believe our current existence is worse than death, for most people, so. It would have to be an incredibly convincing case with more than 'things could be better' backing it.
I personally have not had success, but I've also been busy with more personal stuff, unfortunately. I'm supporting Allen Walker's Sanctuary, and he and several others affiliated with it have, I am told, managed to bring back several beasts to their full senses.
The Wakers are prone to looking to us for guidance and for leadership, as we are closer to them but with far more power of our own. Several of them have been waiting for us for millennia. Is your argument that we should leave them to fend for themselves, despite what they themselves might want? Several members of our community have accumulated followings, even without necessarily wanting them.
Not to mention, the Pthumerians do not consider us outsiders. We are subjects and playthings to do with as they please. We are told to prepare our new lives here. Are we not entitled to anger over the way we are treated as little more than dolls? Or should we allow the weaker and more vulnerable masses of people to take the actions necessary to avenge the wrongs done against them?
I am not interested in any form of justice that focuses on vengeance for its own sake. Ending wrongs is a worthy goal, but I believe we much consider our intentions, our means, and our ends, all together.
If the Wakers truly want our help, then we should be able to open conversations with them, and form something like a consensus on what actions we should take. No, I don't know exactly what the mechanism for that should be.
But I am very sure I do not YET have enough knowledge to take action as drastic as a revolution, wisely.
An old friend and enemy of mine once told me that if you have the power to decide the outcome of a situation, it is your responsibility to do the right thing with it. I agree, largely, that staging a revolution at this time would hardly be the "right" thing.
But many of the Pthumerians hold this land in a stranglehold. They were conquerors as well. This world isn't theirs, it was humanity's world first before the Pthumerian Queen's ambitions caused a snowball of events that lead to Julia Sodder's dreaming and the subsequent unmaking of the Earth.
Is letting them continue to make people suffer unchecked the right thing, then? Is allowing their torment of the people of this land fester further until this world is unmade by the very properties that they introduced in the populace the right thing?
Every second that we are not eradicating the enemy, the world bleeds. Is allowing it to to rot the right thing to do?
There is no easy answer. But the world can't continue as it is, and the local populace do not have the power to change it. We do. Even a hard answer is better than allowing this planet to continue to fester into the hell that it already has become. Even if the humanity of this world is not prepared to strike back against their jailors, I think it is laughably rich for a so-called revolutionary such as your self to look down on people looking to emancipate themselves.
[He reads her response carefully, a couple of times. She sure did take a sharp left turn at the end there, didn't she?]
Chara, I'm not sure what you want from me here. I am more than willing to hear both Wakers and other Sleepers out. But from for myself, I am wary of both black and white thinking, and rushing into making decisions out of anger and fear, without considering the risks and cost. I've made those mistakes before.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
text; un: Lothrat [to all group members]
Just sayin'.
Thanks for the invite, guys.
(And if we are overthrowing any powers that be, a heads up would be nice?)
un: younghuman | text
If we ever organize the overthrow of any seated powers, I assure you that I'll provide notice.
Glad to have you here.
Text | un: diggs
Also hi! It's nice meeting you!
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Nice to meet you too, Oscar! Can I ask how being wanted for treason was a surprise? I say, suddenly recalling that under that empire I mentioned, making any Imperial unhappy could suddenly become 'treason'.
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I guess Atlas must not be too different from that empire. It figures, this is the same kingdom the tried outlawing all kinds of art because allowing self expression was too dangerous.
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The Empire hadn't gotten around to outlawing ALL art yet. Just many kinds and any religion or sub-culture that acknowledges the Force. But yes, I would not be surprised if they had an unfortunate number of traits in common.
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But I take your point. Harder to hold people in charge accountable if they are literally hard to reach physically. And easier for the people physically above it all to believe that they are, in other ways. Yes?
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un: grollschwert
How'd it go?
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In my time, the rebellion was definitely gaining momentum. My last act back home was ending the imperial blockade on my homeworld. My hope was to end the imperial presence on Lothal entirely and show other planets the Empire could be defeated.
There are people here originating from my galaxy, scattered from up and down the timelines. Looks like the Emperor and his right hand man will be dead in about 5 years after when I'm from. I'm less clear on how much their underlings might continue to fight, and how successful reestablishing more representative government is.
Still, overall, seems like good news.
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Gratz on clearing up that blockade. Here's hoping that we don't have to do anything like that around here, yeah?
But if we do, hell, between you and me we should be in good hands.
Last thing I did back home was take down a time-traveling immortal fascist's pet and save the city I lived in.
Never followed back up on the fascist himself, but sure as hell not for lack of trying.
Still, city was still free when I came here, so I'll take that as a long-lasting win.
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A free city that stays free is nothing to scoff at, seriously. Kudos.
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Dude was a fucking nightmare. Also had a way to tap into the fabric of reality and change the bodies and memories of people living within the city, but I guess he never thought that that could ever go wrong for him.
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I'm torn between saying I hope he never ends up here, and wondering if maybe he'd learn something productive like, why fascism is bad, and he can't expect to do whatever he wants forever, if he did.
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un: imyarek
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Korra made a long speech on the network a bit back about overthrowing the Pthumerians, though. She's convinced they somehow instigated the current blood pollution/corruption/magic...thing and that it's a cycle of suffering that needs to be broken.
I think she's making a few leaps of logic, without thinking through possible means OR ends. And even if she's mostly right - again, not ours to unilaterally decide, I don't think.
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Certainly there had been rumors of Sleeper sacrilege running around the Pale Sanctuary in more force, recently, but he had not paid those as much mind as he's accustomed to. (Hadn't paid them much of any mind, in favor of focusing on simple duty.)
Finally, having found the speech, listened to it, and skimmed the replies, he responds:]
She is a fool trying to beat the world into the only frame she knows. They exist in every generation.
That isn't to dismiss the danger she may represent, but I suspect she will trip over her own assumptions before she can cause too much harm.
I've spoken to another Sleeper with a similar attitude--misidentifying the Pthumerians as Generation Himself, and believing they might be overthrown. A Monarch's attitude, whatever excuse they use for wanting to do it.
What argument would it take to sway you for or against such a plan? Do you know?
[What are your vulnerabilities in this realm, Ezra?]
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I'm not sure that I do know, exactly. This world has existed like it is, for a long time, and we're new to it.
At a minimum, a much more air tight body of evidence that shifting the balance of things so drastically would be better not just for us, as Sleepers, or even all of Trench, but for this world as a whole. Without making things worse elsewhere. And I'd need a lot more people than me to be equally convinced.
Which altogether seems like a pretty unlikely bar to clear.
My bar is much lower for incremental, local changes, of course. Especially if they are opt-in. I'm currently supporting expanded agriculture and trying to use non-lethal ways to deal with beasts.
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[Not his theology, but he respects it.]
How do you weigh arguments that it would be better for all the lives to come, even if most Sleepers and humans perished in the conflagration?
I do remember you wanted a peaceful approach to the Leviathan. How fare your efforts with the Beasts?
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I personally have not had success, but I've also been busy with more personal stuff, unfortunately. I'm supporting Allen Walker's Sanctuary, and he and several others affiliated with it have, I am told, managed to bring back several beasts to their full senses.
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for some reason it froze...
Not to mention, the Pthumerians do not consider us outsiders. We are subjects and playthings to do with as they please. We are told to prepare our new lives here. Are we not entitled to anger over the way we are treated as little more than dolls? Or should we allow the weaker and more vulnerable masses of people to take the actions necessary to avenge the wrongs done against them?
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If the Wakers truly want our help, then we should be able to open conversations with them, and form something like a consensus on what actions we should take. No, I don't know exactly what the mechanism for that should be.
But I am very sure I do not YET have enough knowledge to take action as drastic as a revolution, wisely.
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But many of the Pthumerians hold this land in a stranglehold. They were conquerors as well. This world isn't theirs, it was humanity's world first before the Pthumerian Queen's ambitions caused a snowball of events that lead to Julia Sodder's dreaming and the subsequent unmaking of the Earth.
Is letting them continue to make people suffer unchecked the right thing, then? Is allowing their torment of the people of this land fester further until this world is unmade by the very properties that they introduced in the populace the right thing?
Every second that we are not eradicating the enemy, the world bleeds. Is allowing it to to rot the right thing to do?
There is no easy answer. But the world can't continue as it is, and the local populace do not have the power to change it. We do. Even a hard answer is better than allowing this planet to continue to fester into the hell that it already has become. Even if the humanity of this world is not prepared to strike back against their jailors, I think it is laughably rich for a so-called revolutionary such as your self to look down on people looking to emancipate themselves.
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Chara, I'm not sure what you want from me here. I am more than willing to hear both Wakers and other Sleepers out. But from for myself, I am wary of both black and white thinking, and rushing into making decisions out of anger and fear, without considering the risks and cost. I've made those mistakes before.
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It has for longer than any Sleeper here remembers--even the oldest.
[Much like Chara, Illarion's inclined to poke.]
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